Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

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timh
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Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#1

Post by timh »

A short journey to investigate exactly what has been limiting the quality of my images --

When trying to work at 0.5 arc sec / pixel and below the practical limits on sharpness become apparent. With good collimation and a sufficient number of short exposures that only the best need be retained for integration then what - aside from the seeing - is there left to improve upon?

Interesting recent learning for me is that the mount movement in RA can be a real limitation - see below.

For a long time I have seen ellipticity (r value 0.8-0.9) and especially so in unsaturated stars. There are so many possible causes of this that pinning it down can be quite a detective story - and probably particularly so in long focus Newtonians.

I had at first put this assymetry down to uneven DEC/RA guiding - but then noted that it didn't go away even in 1 or 2s short frames - either unguided or when PHD2 RA/DEC RMS guiding figures were near even. Then - for quite a long time - I assumed that I must have some alignment error or problem with persistent poor collimation or uncorrected coma. But using a laser, Cheshire eyepiece and out of focus star views I eventually became confident that collimation and alignment were good. Finally I noticed that when I analyzed past images by measuring the PSF of stars that the direction of elongation was consistent both within and across images - it was always quite close to the RA axis. It was also the same after swapping telescopes. So obviously it couldn't be anything to do with the scopes, the seeing or tube currents either.

So it was puzzling. At high resolution (not so noticeable at lower) stars were elliptical even in 1s frames when guiding was better than 0.5 arcsec RMS , similar in RA and DEC and the telescope was well aligned and collimated?

Finally did some experiments to see just how short exposures needed to be in order for the stars to stop looking elliptical. Used Sharpcap to collect video .SER files at 100ms, 200ms and 600ms, used PIPP to then extract the .FIT files and then finally compare images made by registering and integrating the different exposure frame sets. The camera was a ZWO AS1294 MM PRO, the telescope was a PDS200 F 5.0 Newtonian with Baader MkIII flattener mounted on an Ioptron CEM70.

The attached images - all at 0.45 arcsec/ pixel - show some of the results. The left hand image is an integration of 917 x 100ms (gain 324) frames and the right hand 202 x 600 ms (gain 124) frames of part of the M3 core. The difference is quite striking. The 100ms image is really quite good for a total exposure of only 91s - it may be the best resolved (FWHM ~ 1.5) picture of M3 that I have obtained so far? By contrast, all the stars in the 600ms image - taken just minutes after the 100ms image -are blurred by elongation - again in the RA direction.

So the conclusion in the end was quite clear. My mount clearly suffers some high frequency oscillation as it tracks - between 2 and 10 Hz - and mainly in RA and up to a couple of arcsec peak to peak. PHD2 doesn't indicate the problem because it acts as a low pass filter only sampling every couple of seconds or so. I further confirmed this oscillation more directly (not shown) by making AVI videos of the frames - which clearly show significant oscillatory sideways movement over and above the general non-directional seeing jitter. It could be gear meshing or something else but I'm throwing it over to Ioptron to look at - whatever else the RA resolution of the mount is not 0.07 arcsec. I'd be very interested to know if anyone else has run this sort of quite rigorous test on their mount movement and what they see ? - the effects become relatively subtle at resolutions much below 1 arc sec / pixel and/or in longer exposures with more saturated stars and/or poorer seeing. So not an obvious limitation under many conditions.

Anyway the above was interesting learning if a bit frustrating -- and it also made me better understand perhaps why deconvolution has been quite such a beneficial a process for a number of my images. Deconvolution works particularly well for cases where you have consistent motion blur - which is what this is - right across the field. With this in mind I dug out some of the images of M57 that I took this time last year when I first started dabbling with the use of semi-lucky short frames to improve resolution. i.e. viewtopic.php?t=4243

So the second picture is essentially the same as last year's image of M57 but with some additional short frames added and deconvolution applied. The deconvolution makes a major improvement - and I was pleased to see that the added detail is not artifactual (can see evidence of the same features in the HST image). So while motion blur is a nuisance deconvolution can provide something of a post facto cure in some cases (the one thing it hasn't done is sort out the triangular shapes of stars - this time last year I had the Newtonian mirror clamps too tight - yet more learning :-)).


Tim
Attachments
M3_expCapture.JPG
M3_expCapture.JPG (153.72 KiB) Viewed 831 times
M57_Newt_230721_MC_Sselectbest85perc_146x10s_gain124_all_drizzle2_CROP_ABE_PCCcol_SCNR_MLT_starmask_TRANS_registered_LUMfrom2400x1splus800x3s_deconvolved_ABE_MLT_thenCURVES_affinity16bit_PX.jpg
M57_Newt_230721_MC_Sselectbest85perc_146x10s_gain124_all_drizzle2_CROP_ABE_PCCcol_SCNR_MLT_starmask_TRANS_registered_LUMfrom2400x1splus800x3s_deconvolved_ABE_MLT_thenCURVES_affinity16bit_PX.jpg (142.31 KiB) Viewed 831 times
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oopfan
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#2

Post by oopfan »

Tim,

Very interesting. Something to try: Turn off DEC-guiding in PHD2, and perform a slow slew in DEC with the shutter open. See if faint stars exhibit a sinusoidal-like dance around the mean. Try it with and without RA-guiding.

See if your mount offers a tracking mode that provides finer steps.

Brian
timh
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#3

Post by timh »

Thanks Brian,

That is a very smart suggestion. Assuming that the DEC movement is reasonably smooth your notion should provide a star trail graph of what is happening in RA with time on the DEC axis? RA is tracking at ~ 15 arcsec/ sec which is about 35 pixels/ sec. So if I slew RA at the same rate as RA is tracking for a few tens of seconds it might work. I wil give it a go next time.

Don't think I can do anything to get finer movement though...I assumed that the quoted ~0.07 arcsec resolution corresponds to one step of the stepper motor which it should step through every ~ 5 ms? I was guessing that the drive chain isn't immediately enough translating the stepper movement into RA movement and so it is stuttering and then overshooting in some way although I can't find anything wrong with the belt tension or meshing?

Tim
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oopfan
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#4

Post by oopfan »

Hi Tim,

You said something that suggests that you might not have enough east-heavy in the counterweights.

Brian
timh
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#5

Post by timh »

Yes I did but no. It wasn't that - was East heavy and in fact was behaving just the same on the odd occasion when it wasn't. I. E
After a meridian flip and I didn't bother to shift the weights up a bit. Tim
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Menno555
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#6

Post by Menno555 »

Although I'm a 100% guiding noob, it still was a very interesting read Tim.
I too am thinking in the direction of the mount and balance.
When I started I had a kind of same thing as what you describe. With balancing it was a kind of middling of balance because one side would always be a tiny bit off, west- or east heavy, I don't recall. But it was only a tiny bit and the deformation of the stars was not too bad.

Until I tackled that by adding a bit of weight on 1 side of my scope and there was perfect balance and the tiny oval stars were gone. In my case I attached the empty holder of the finder scope. It looks big and heavy in the attached shot but it isn't :)
Now when I'm balancing it's not heavy anymore towards 1 direction and I didn't have to balance it towards a gear (or a belt in my case). It also had a positive effect when it came to meridian flip.
I have to say though that I have a Ioptron center balanced mount and those are more sensitive, more fluid in their movement than normal German EQ mounts.

Menno

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timh
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#7

Post by timh »

Hi Menno,

Interestingly I do exactly the same as you - use a finder holder - to better achieve 3D balance - although with a Newtonian the main tool is to rotate the tube within the tube rings. The CEM70 is also a centre-balanced Ioptron mount. But the issue I have is not related to guiding _ the subframes for M3 and M57 above are just a couple of seconds or less and so are unguided. The issue is actually to do with the smoothness of movement on the subsecond time- scale. There appears to be oscillation along the RA axis - maybe up to 3 arcsec side to side - somewhere between every ~100 and 500 ms and that you can see in videos. So my 100ms images are sharper and show better shaped stars than the 600 ms.

But to be fair I am pushing at the limits of resolution and probably therefore detecting issues that wouldn't always be so obvious. The 100ms image above is separating stars as close as 1.5 arcsec - and on a more forgiving scale of say 2.5 arcsec even the 600 ms image that looks relatively blurred above would probably look quite acceptable.

Actually it would be very interesting to know how your set up on a CEM25EC compares? Maybe - if you got a chance - you could try taking something like 200ms to 1s subs or .SER files of M3 (with gain proportional to sub length) ? I think that your image scale is quite similar to mine and with a 200mm mirror the resolution should be the same. If your mount runs smoother than mine then you should be able to get images similar to my 100ms subs and better than my 600ms subs all the way up to the longer times?

Tim
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Menno555
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#8

Post by Menno555 »

Will make some captures with those settings Tim and post the results.

I did a very short session in April on M3 but with 300sec and Gain 0 and tracking only. Stacked 2 of those to test now and have round stars there. Of course bigger stars but no overblown core.
The resolution of that is 0.490 arcsec/px according to SiriL after a plate solve. And a FOV of 40' 21.47" x 26' 48.44".

Menno
timh
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Re: Journey to find out what limits sharpness, M3, M57 and deconvolution

#9

Post by timh »

Thanks Menno,

With encoders you should do better than me I am told but it will be interesting to see

Tim
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