How to get beyond USB cable problems

Discussion of using SharpCap for Deep Sky Imaging
psy1280
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How to get beyond USB cable problems

#1

Post by psy1280 »

For as long as I can remember I've had issues with dropped frames, LiveStacking that becomes unresponsive, difficulties communicating with my mount, etc. Robin has given me enough advice in the past to narrow this down to USB issues. I'm so tired of the messages, "unable to communicate with mount or, zero frames stacked and zero frames ignored (nothing happening)...simply an unresponsive connection." No matter what I've tried, unless I go from camera directly to my laptop, which, although this "usually" works best, doesn't work for me because I need to be remote (20 feet away) because of a deck that vibrates when I go inside.

I'm looking for any suggestions as to how I can take the next step and eliminate these problems. I know some use ASIair (which I'm not quite ready for, but if all else fails I'd be willing to try), some use mini-computers hooked up to the mount, etc. I feel I need to step up my game and do something--anything--that helps me not waste another night. I should mention that occasionally, everything works...quite a tease!!!

If anyone has any suggestions as to what might be the "next step," please let me know.

Yours,
Joe
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admin
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#2

Post by admin »

Hi Joe,

I'm in favour of putting a computer on or next to the mount, and then taking control of that computer from a remote location. You can either do that with long USB/monitor cables leading to your work location or with a second computer doing remote control over the network.

Something like an Intel NUC would work fine, but may cost more than you would like to spend (also check the number of USB ports).

cheers,

Robin
Gamewarden
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#3

Post by Gamewarden »

Didnt say what mount you have BUT

I have a Celestron 6SE and use wifi from my phone which has Sky Safari 6 plus on it. Scope is 30 feet away on back deck. I live in country so no competing wifi signal. I use a USB 2 for both my cameras 224 and 294. hooked into laptop. Works great, others use CPWI connected to Hand set but I found it disconnected to often.

Mark Simple setup that works for me.
psy1280
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#4

Post by psy1280 »

Thanks Robin,
Hm, yes, a mini-computer solution would be quite pricey, but worth considering. If I have this straight, the mini computer would be next to the mount (I'm assuming I can use a hub to connect my different USB cables to that computer, then I would run a USB 3 cable into the house and into my laptop. If that is correct, why wouldn't I have the same issues with the USB? Is it because the mini computer sends it as a stronger signal?

And thank you Gamewarden,
I have a Celestron AVX mount. I'm trying to get away from Wifi and Skysafari...I'm looking to have something more consistently reliable.

Thank you both,
Joe
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oopfan
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#5

Post by oopfan »

Joe,

Don't run a USB cable from outside to inside. Instead, run an Ethernet cable (CAT5/6) from the NUC to your home network. Then from inside the house, connect to the NUC using Remote Desktop software. I do it. It works great. I run a 100-foot long CAT5 cable, but from what I understand, you can run up to 300 feet. If your house has an outdoor outlet for CAT5/6 then you only need a cable that is long enough to run from it to the NUC. I don't use a NUC. I use a clunky old laptop that I keep outside on a table next to the scope. It's got a Celeron processor, so it doesn't win any awards for speed. It works fine for AP and lunar. But if you LiveStack you probably need a more expensive and capable computer. I do things old-school, so I can get away with running SharpCap on an abacus.

Brian
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turfpit
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#6

Post by turfpit »

Joe

This is how the proposed remote desktop connection would look.

schematic.JPG
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  • The capture laptop is at the scope.
  • Short USB3 cable from camera to the capture laptop.
  • Captures can take place in the usual way.
To enable a remote connection:
  • A CAT5 ethernet cable is connected from the capture laptop to the home network via a hub or the router. Ethernet specs allow for this cable to be up to 100m.
  • The remote control PC/laptop is in the house and connected to the home network via CAT5 ethernet cable to hub or router.
  • An ethernet hub could be strapped to the mount leg but it would need power.
Things to note:
  • Windows Remote Desktop service is enabled on the capture laptop. This capture laptop must be running a Professional version of Windows (not Home).
  • Windows Remote Desktop Client is run on the remote control laptop. Any version of Windows has this software component.
  • The remote control laptop can be any old machine, desktop or laptop, running any version of Windows (Home or Pro). The hardware can be very low spec as far as processor/memory/disk goes.
  • If the capture laptop can reliably connect to the home wireless network then the CAT5 ethernet cables are not required.



The system would be used like this:
  • With this configuration you can be at the capture laptop and carry out alignment, focussing etc in the usual way.
  • Once all the capture settings, go into the house and make the remote connection via the remote connection laptop. The screen displayed on the capture laptop becomes available on the machine in the house. Changes to settings and initiation of captures can be controlled from the remote connection laptop.
  • Going back outside and logging back into the capture laptop will pick up the session in progress. Bias & flats etc could now be collected.

This is how it looks for real. Capture laptop is a Toshiba bought off ebay for £150. It has a 500Gb drive, i3 processor & 8Gb memory and runs Windows 10 Pro 64-bit with SC 4.0 32-bit. The remote machine I happened to use is my (dusty!) workstation. This is much higher spec and used for processing but it could be any low spec machine (desktop or laptop).

The reality looks like this:

Capture laptop with Altair 183C camera connected. The camera has a small CCTV lens attached which saves having to have the full rig in the study.

capture-laptop.JPG
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SharpCap started, camera connected, settings adjusted for exposure etc and lens focused. SharpCap is now ready to commence an imaging run.

capture-in-progress.JPG
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Move to the workstation and connect remotely to the capture laptop over the network as the user running on the laptop. To connect, the user on the capture laptop must have a password (Windows standard security setting for remote connections is that connection user must have a password). Once logged in, the display screen on the laptop will go off and appear on the remote machine (the workstation). Mouse and keyboard actions at the workstation can be applied to the SharpCap program which is actually running on the capture laptop.

remote-connection-from-workstation.JPG
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Once you understand that the capture session is always running on the capture laptop and all the machine in the house does is connect over the network to the capture session running on the laptop then this will become clearer.

How reliable is this technology? I was once on holiday in Majorca and managed to fix a problem on a server in the UK. Connection was via remote desktop running on an iPad (conveniently small but special software required from my network supplier), over the hotel wireless network, out onto the internet, in through the company firewall sited in the UK and onto the server. It was slow but faster (and cheaper) than flying home. Plus I did test it all out before going on holiday!

Questions for you to answer Joe.
  • Can your capture laptop connect reliably to your home wireless network when it is sited at the scope? If 'yes' then the network cable is not needed, if 'no' then you will need an appropriate length of CAT5 ethernet cable. Exterior grade would be better (but not essential) as it is more robust for outside usage.
  • What are the capture laptop specs? processor, disk, memory, number of USB2 ports, number of USB3 ports, exact Windows version - a number plus is it Home or Pro?
  • What USB devices are connected to the capture laptop?
  • Are there enough ports on the capture laptop to allow for a dedicated camera to USB3 connection?
  • What is the exact model of your camera - there are 2 possibilities?
  • Have you got any redundant PCs or laptops lying around that could be utilised for the remote connection? If so, what version of Windows?
Dave
psy1280
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#7

Post by psy1280 »

Dave,
I want to thank you for you exhaustive effort offering me this possible solution. Much of what you say has to be digested (I'm not much of a computer guy). I, for example, have a router in my office on the other side of the house which wouldn't serve me for this. Would I need to purchase a new router? Also, I do have two laptops with Windows 10. One is much better than the other, I assume the capture laptop at the mount should be the better computer?

Again, you were very kind to take the time to lay this all out for me. I appreciate it.
Joe
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turfpit
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#8

Post by turfpit »

Joe

It didn't take that long to write up as I used to work in the computing industry - probably worth 1/10 for the drawing.

Use the better laptop at the mount if you are doing Live Stack. For conventional old school capture then process later, either laptop would do. It depends if you don't mind the better one getting covered in dew/frost.

It sounds like it is impractical to use the existing router located in the office - so ignore that.
  • How far apart would the 2 laptops be?
  • Is there a mains supply at the mount and if so is it an extension lead plugged into the mains inside the house?
  • Have you got any old routers which are no longer used lying around?
  • Alternatively can you borrow a router that is no longer in service from someone?
Both laptops have to be on the same network and have to obtain network addresses - these would be from the router. If you can obtain such a device we can then do 'proof of concept' by having the 2 laptops communicate using the Windows Remote Desktop software.

My previous post asked 6 questions - without proper answers to these it will result in a protracted exchange on the forum and be difficult to progress your project.

Dave
je2000
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#9

Post by je2000 »

Can we set up this remote desktop via WiFi only?

My plan would be to leave the laptop outside and then just control the laptop via Remote Desktop from my Desktop PC. Running ethernet is fine but WiFi would be more convenient. Setting up networks is completely alien to me, but it seems like it would be pretty easy to just connect both devices to my home network.
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Re: How to get beyond USB cable problems

#10

Post by turfpit »

Can we set up this remote desktop via WiFi only?
Yes.

If the laptop outside can see your home wireless network then the PC inside will be able connect to the laptop via Remote Desktop. The laptop would need to be running a Professional (rather than Home) version of Windows. I have also managed remote control using TightVNC https://www.tightvnc.com/ server & client. Upgrading to Windows Professional is expensive but the TightVNC software is free.

it seems like it would be pretty easy to just connect both devices to my home network
The devil is in the detail. The connection depends on the distance from the laptop to your router (or wireless access point) and how many walls the signal has to travel through. Exterior walls (in the UK) are generally thicker than interior walls and may contain foil backed insulation panels. Also having something like a fridge directly between laptop and router will kill the wireless signal. Having a mixed wireless/wired network would also work. Another option to consider would be a Powerline (networking over mains) solution.

Dave
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