Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

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turfpit
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#31

Post by turfpit »

Tim

Thanks for the 90Mb file - I hope you have plenty of disk space. Looks like you are now starting to interpret the histogram - progress.

Any stacking software will be picky about the frames matching, so be consistent with your lights, darks, flats, biases in terms of Output Format, Bit Depth, Capture Area and Colour Space.

The image header of the FITS frame contains the 3 important settings - exposure, gain and black_level. I think for the ZWO black_level is called Brightness (see your capture settings file).

M44-image-header.JPG
M44-image-header.JPG (56.26 KiB) Viewed 2320 times

M44-histogram.JPG
M44-histogram.JPG (87.52 KiB) Viewed 2320 times


There are 2 areas to address with the histogram. Decreasing exposure (2) will move the histogram away from the right hand side. Also adjusting brightness will shift the whole histogram to the left or to the right (1). How I do this is by using a bias frame to adjust the brightness (black_level/offset for Altair/QHY cameras). Think of a bias frame as a 'zero exposure' dark frame. To capture a bias frame, put the cap on the telescope, leave the gain the same as for the light frames and set the exposure to the minimal value possible. The steps are:
  • Decide on the gain to be used, 348 in the M44 case.
  • Set the brightness to 100 as in the M44 case.
  • Set exposure to the minimum possible.
  • Cover the scope.
  • Capture a single frame.
  • Load the frame into FITS Liberator.
If the histogram is not centralised, then adjust the brightness - decrease will move the histogram left, increase will move the histogram right. A decent bias frame will look like this:


bias-frame.JPG
bias-frame.JPG (99.5 KiB) Viewed 2320 times


In the Image Statistics the min value seems to be around 100 and the max value near 1000 (these are just guidelines). Note that the histogram is centralised and not touching either side.

The idea is for a given gain, use the smallest Brightness setting which gives a centralised histogram.

In an imaging session, decide the gain, set up a bias frame as above. This gain and brightness are used for the capture and the exposure can be adjusted to give a good histogram. It is worth trying the extreme settings for brightness to see how it affects the histogram of the bias frame. A good exercise for in the house as no scope is needed. A good starting point (not necessarily an ending point) for gain is to use the Unity Gain value for the camera. See https://bbs.astronomy-imaging-camera.co ... php?t=6595 where the camera manufacturer suggests gain=139, offset (brightness)=21. It may well be that 21 ends up as the figure you need (for gain 139).

The bias frames will be needed if you want to get the best out of processing (they get used to create the maser flat). In DSS they are just added in and the software handles everything in terms of processing. 50 - 100 bias frames only take a few seconds to generate.

I have seen references recently that using the lowest exposure for bias frames on modern CMOS cameras is not the best. Start off with lowest exposure but if there are issues then exposures up to about 1s are ok for these sort of cameras.

The other point is your histogram is 'gappy', I would expect it to be solid. The gaps mean information is missing and will cause abrupt changes between tones (reference: Photoshop Astronomy, R Scott Ireland, page 43). Once you have the brightness setting correct, using unity gain and a reasonable exposure for the object then that issue should go away.

It would be interesting to see how your bias frame looks and what the settings are.

Dave
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#32

Post by tmyers »

Let me address the Bias Frames.

First one is at gain of 320, exposure of .0320, and brightness at 100

The histogram is way over to the left, and brightness has no affect on it.

Inputs
Min 14
Max 7070

Second one is at gin of 141 (unity Gain), exposure of .0320, and brightness of 100

There are thee distinct peaks nearer to the center but still nothing like yours.

Inputs
Min 905
Max 2669

I am assuming since I shot my images in RAW 16, that I need to shoot the bias files in RAW 16
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#33

Post by turfpit »

Tim
I am assuming since I shot my images in RAW 16, that I need to shoot the bias files in RAW 16
Correct, This property (RAW16) must match across all types of frames (lights, darks, flats, bias).

In this thread https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/5948 ... rong-here/, posts #13 & #14 talk about using 0.2s exposure for bias frames with your model of camera.

As to adjusting the brightness not having any effect, I cannot really comment. Hopefully someone on the forum who owns this model of camera and is producing decent images will come forward with some working settings.

Dave
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#34

Post by tmyers »

Might not seem like it but I am absorbing a lot and with each new bit if information more questions arise. DSS lists a "dark flat" and if what I am reading is correct a Dark Flat is in lieu of a bias frame. Is that correct?

Also noticed that in SC that the Captures flats window has a check box for "Capture and Subtract bias frames to correct for black offset in flat.dark's automatically. Is this the same as a dark flat". Does this eliminate the need for capturing bias frames or am I not understanding this.

As for live stacking; I have stayed away from this in using my simple approach to things, but recently came across a video on using live stacking to stack individual frames that have been captured in the past. Not only is this helping me to understand the power of live stacking but using existing frames is helping me to understand how it works.

File naming: What is the logic behind the folder naming IE: 21_42_36. I know it means something but can't find an explanation on the naming!!

Lastly, Dave, You are spending a great deal of time imparting information to me, and I truly appreciate your time. If I become a pain please just let me know. I realize the value of your time!
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#35

Post by turfpit »

Tim
Dark Flat is in lieu of a bias frame. Is that correct?
I think so. As a relative beginner I have steered clear of dark flats. To me it seemed an unnecessary complication. Get this wrong and one could end up subtracting the bias twice (not good). Read this (all of it) https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/5943 ... ias-frame/ where the debate ends up with are they dark flats or flat darks? I can't put my thoughts on that debate in a public forum!
check box for "Capture and Subtract bias frames to correct for black offset in flat
Checking the box will have the bias frames generated in software and applied to the flats, so everything is taken care of. In Live Stack, applying darks and flats generated from within SharpCap will take care of all your calibration requirements. In the Gallery Forum you will find evidence of people who work this way and produce good images - @BlackWikkett or @mAnKiNd are worth looking at (there are others).
logic behind the folder naming IE: 21_42_36
When a capture sequence is started, the default application setting is for a folder to be created where the naming convention is the time of creation. 21_42_36 is the time 21:42:36. The ':' cannot be used as it is an illegal character for a file name - the colon is used as a device name terminator - think C: for a drive name.
You are spending a great deal of time imparting information to me
No problem Tim. I have set off on a journey to write a book which I think is badly needed at the beginner level. These discussions are helping me formulate my material.

The questions you are asking are the same ones I was asking 3 years ago. It seems everyone goes through this or the telescope is up for sale on AstroBuySell with "only used twice". If you look in the Gallery for my M42 Chronicles post you will understand.

Dave
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#36

Post by tmyers »

Duhhh, the file name is the time of day, I say again Duhhh
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#37

Post by tmyers »

I read the CN post, all I can say is Wow!!!
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#38

Post by tmyers »

Things are on the up swing for me. I have set up ASPS for plate solving and set up POTH, so I can use SC Telescope control. Wow, what a game changer this is. No worries about whether or not I am really on target.

I did try Live Stack twice however and it locked up SC both times, so back to regular stacking till I ferret that issue out.

I also tred Smart Histogram (The Brain) and the results were less than stellar. I have it set to unity gain which for me is 141 and it doesn't seen to matter how many frames I get there is not enough protons to see the likes of M82 or M81. At one point it wanted me to gather 35999 exposures at 5s and G141.

I didn't do that LOL.
Tim

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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#39

Post by turfpit »

Tim

With the gain at 141, try 60s exposures. If you use the Display Histogram Stretch (top button of the 3) you should be able to see those objects.

https://docs.sharpcap.co.uk/3.2/#Mini%2 ... %20Stretch

Post back a picture of a FITS file with a FITS Liberator screenshot. I want to see the histogram.

Dave
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Re: Flats - Darks - Fits - PNG - Live Stack

#40

Post by tmyers »

Annotation 2020-04-08 105102.png
Annotation 2020-04-08 105102.png (285.29 KiB) Viewed 2250 times
Tim

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